Curse

loc87 · Aug 14, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

How exactly are you supposed to make one? I know there's energy denial and interrupt ... and i've been hearing about echo+debilitating or choking gas+practiced stance. In these builds ... are there any other important skills?

Also, will a echo+debilitating ranger with a pet that uses disrupting lunge work for gvg? kinda like ...
Charm Animal
Call of Protection
Symbiotic Bond
Disrupting Lunge
Echo
Debilitating Shot
For the last two slots, maybe something like whirling defense, troll, pin down/maiming strike?

Epinephrine · Aug 14, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Tiger's Fury
Choking Gas

White Designs · Aug 15, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

You pretty much never want to use pets. They just aren't very reliable at the moment.

ElderAtronach · Aug 15, 2005, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Punishing Shot
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Debilitating Shot
Choking Gas
Concussion Shot... maybe

Disrupting lunge is pretty bad, as there is a considerable pause between you hitting the skill, and your pet executing it, especially if you just switched targets.

Punishing Shot is just fun

loc87 · Aug 15, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

oh, ok, so interrupting with pets isn't very effective? that sucks...disrupting lunge actually adds damage and has half the recharge of distracting shot :-\

oh, by the way, does the damage bonus from choking gas add to base damage or does it count as "bonus damage" in the damage equation ... ie if someone casted judge's insight on me, would the damage bonus benefit from the armor penetration?

[email protected] · Aug 15, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Why not use Signet of Humility and Arcane Thievery in a disrupting build. That is 2 skills knocked out already. Take out Beast Mastery from this build for more flexibility.

Expertise 9+1
Beast Mastery 9+1
Domination 12
Marksmanship 3+1
Unused 1

Echo {E} (Mesmer General)
Disrupting Lunge (Beast Mastery)
Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
Revive Animal (Beast Mastery)
Signet of Humility (Mesmer General) (Target Foes Elite Skill is disable for 15 seconds.)
Hex Breaker (Domination)
Arcane Thievery (Domination) (For 29 seconds, one random spell is disabled for target foe, and Arcane Thievery is replaced by that spell.)

Thanato · Aug 15, 2005, 04:00 AM // 04:00

one slight problem with your build.....you dont have charm animal and thus anything pet related is useless since you wont have a pet along :P

Epinephrine · Aug 15, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by loc87

oh, ok, so interrupting with pets isn't very effective? that sucks...disrupting lunge actually adds damage and has half the recharge of distracting shot :-\

oh, by the way, does the damage bonus from choking gas add to base damage or does it count as "bonus damage" in the damage equation ... ie if someone casted judge's insight on me, would the damage bonus benefit from the armor penetration?

Disrupting lunge is a great skill. Ignore those that criticise it if they have no experience with it. The tricks with it are the following:

1) It is a 0 time attack skill; 0 time attack skills get activated on the next attack the creature/player makes. Since the attack rate on a pet is 2 seconds this results in it actually firing up to 2 seconds after you hit the button, making it very difficult to target a skill with it. Distracting shot on the other hand is a .75 second attack skill; as it has a time listed it actually breaks the animation cycle to fire quickly, resulting in only the .75 second delay, even on a 2.7 second cycle bow, menaing that it can be used to interrupt a targeted skill reliably enough. The solution to this is to spam disrupting lunge every time it refreshes; without call of haste this is every 6 seconds, with call of haste it's every 5 seconds. since a chain casting player spends more than half the time in casting animations you actually have a good chance of hittting a spell. (Since at the point at which it resolves the player is probably casting - a 1 second spell has a .75 second after cast, so you have a 1/1.75, or 57% chance of hitting a spell if the person is chain casting 1 second spells.)

2) Quickening zephyr is a common ritual in PvP, and disrupting lunge falls to every 2.5 seconds this way. With call of haste on that means it can be used every second attack, 2.66 seconds apart, for 3 energy - this is more energy than you regen, but with an energy regen method in there you should be fine spamming it. The frequency of the hits is what will make this work - yes, it will frequently hit, but think of it this way - while that animal is on the victim it is a) doing damage, b) hitting with a disrupting lunge every 2.66 seconds. This guarantees that any 3+ second spell is interrupted. A 2 second casting spell will be interrupted 2/2.666, or about 75% of the time, and a 1 second spell 37.5% of the time - that's given a single, randomly cast spell - chain casting the odds go up. If you use Arcane conundrum you will hit nearly anything they try - it's as close to shutdown as you can get, and since the skill is gone for 20 additional seconds it leaves them vulnerable for long enough to finish them off most likely. Since so many players have a few workhorse skills you only need to hit a few to basically disable them.

3) As mentioned, pets are horrible for target switching - they really like to hit an opponent and stick to them. On the plus side, an enemy with a speed-boosted pet on them is unlikely to get away. It really ends up working best to take out an important caster. In PvE this generally means a boss caster, though it can work on other skills as well. As is the problem with most battles involving mobs though the enemies are generally killed before the effects of disrupting a skill normally come out, unless they are large damage, long casting skills (Hydras for example can be interrupted easily) or if the mobs rely on a single spammed skill (Ice Spear from those annoying imps for example)

I've used it in PvE very successfully, even on big missions. Against a big boss it can be so effective - it kills Glint wonderfully for example, and disables most of the annoying Monk spammers pretty well too. Haven't tried it in PvP as I suspect you need a build that really takes pets into account, and my guild hasn't yet run one, but I think it could work.

Is it worth the energy? Well, I'd say no - it isn't worth taking 100% of your regeneration to basically eliminate one player - that's inefficient, as it is just trading a player for a player - granted, you trade for the player you need disabled at that time, but it really isn't as good a a dedicated Blackout build that way. However, it does open up a nice energy regen skill, Ferocious Strike, which more than makes up for its cost. If you were to run the two skills one more than pays the other, at which point you have not expended enrgy, only skills to achieve the interrupting/lockdown. You unfortunately do't have a preparation most likely, or not a great one as you are heavily invested in expertise and beastmastery, and probably in marksmanship as well, so while you have a great Tiger's Fury to use and some decent base bow damage you lose out on the preparations and elite bow skills, severely limiting what you can bring to the field. It's a neat thought excercise, and the pet users out there wear by their pets - I like using a pet from time to time, but I find I am much more effective in othr roles. though I haven't yet played in a team with multiple pet users.

loc87 · Aug 16, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

is it possible to get your pet attacking one foe while you're attacking another?

Epinephrine · Aug 16, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Loc87 - Yes, the pet will attack whatever target you intitially attack - I find I sometimes have to call the traget to get him on it, but once that is done and he starts hitting you can switch to another target and your pet will stay to harrass the first one. I'm not sure how long the pet will stay there, but it's a good while certainly - in PvE I don't think I've ever seen my pet switch off before finishing his enemy unless I was running away or something.

loc87 · Aug 17, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

hmmm .. if that's the case in pvp, how would a crazy build like this one do?

Power Block
Signet of Humility
Debilitating Shot
Pin Down
Disrupting Lunge
Charm Animal
Call of Protection
Whirling Defenses

with someone else in my team packing QZ ... thus with a short/flat bow, I fire debilitating shots every 2 secs ... my pet attacks with disrupting lunge every 2 secs ... and power block and signet of humility just for kicks

energy may be a problem, but after ~5 debilitating shot spams ill just use normal attack to get some energy back ... or i could use marksman's wager or ferocious strike *shrug*

doubt this'll work tho, with me doing energy denial to one dude and my pet interrupting another

Epinephrine · Aug 17, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by loc87

hmmm .. if that's the case in pvp, how would a crazy build like this one do?

Power Block
Signet of Humility
Debilitating Shot
Pin Down
Disrupting Lunge
Charm Animal
Call of Protection
Whirling Defenses

with someone else in my team packing QZ ... thus with a short/flat bow, I fire debilitating shots every 2 secs ... my pet attacks with disrupting lunge every 2 secs ... and power block and signet of humility just for kicks

energy may be a problem, but after ~5 debilitating shot spams ill just use normal attack to get some energy back ... or i could use marksman's wager or ferocious strike *shrug*

doubt this'll work tho, with me doing energy denial to one dude and my pet interrupting another

First, the cycle times don't round down, so you end up with 2.5 second cycle times on both the DS and the DL - you can't use them every shot with a shortbow or with a pet that attacks every 2 seconds - you'll end up getting them off every 2 attacks, or every 4 seconds, which is only 1.5 times as often as you would if you didn't have QZ (every 3rd attack, or every 6 seconds) Switching to a Horn Bow at 2.7 seconds per shot wuold let you fire one every shot, or using Tiger's Fury would let you do it every second shot on a shortbow to get it every 2.66 seconds, a marginal improvement in energy denial, but an extra attack in there. The Beast can likewise benefit from Call of Haste, hitting every 1.33 seconds and using the DL every 2nd attack.

Ok, Debilitating Shot can be a good skill, but only in the right circumstances, and here's why (these are my views obviously, though backed up numerically).

Debilitating Shot uses 10 energy to deny 10 energy without expertise - that's really not a good thing, so non-Rangers really shoulldn't run it.

At it's best efficiency (with 14+ Expertise) Debilitating Shot trades 4 energy for 10 energy from your opponent - that's a nice trade. Granted, you are likely using it vs a caster and you have 1 pip less regen than they do , so it is in effect trading 4 seconds of your regeneration for 7.5 seconds of theirs, still a nice move.

Under Quickening Zephyr you still only knock off 10 energy from them, but at 13-14 expertise you are paying 6 energy for it, or in essence you trade 6 seconds for 7.5 seconds - granted, you can do it more often, but it is getting to be less efficient. These efficiencies also only work if the viictim is at 10+ energy when they get hit - hitting a caster at 8 energy or less is actually a bad trade in energy under QZ - at least without QZ on you can hit them as low as 5.333 energy without worrying (trading 4 seconds for 4 seconds).

So in essence, I think that while Debilitatiing shot is a great tool versus catsters in the early game it becomes a much less desirable tool under QZ, while skills like Energy Tap become much better tools, normally (at 12 Inspiration for example) denying 1.7 pips of energy while netting 1.04 pips, it jumps to 3 pips of denial and 1.38 pips of regeneration under QZ, clearly improving in both the denial and the gain - it is not as efficient at tranferring energy, as the ratio of gain is not as good - you gain less energy per point stolen, but that's fine, as you don't hurt your supply.

loc87 · Aug 17, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

im pretty sure recharge times round down .. otherwise why would quick shot, which normally has a 1 sec recharge, become a 0 sec recharge skill under qz?

Epinephrine · Aug 17, 2005, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Well, I suppose that you could be right - you'd really have to go in game and test it, using something like fraps to record it and then measuring exactly how long it took to recycle. I'm not sure if QS really drops to 0 seconds during a QZ - even with the fastest bows and TF running your shot time is 1.33 seconds, so a QS which shoots 3 times as fast is a .44 second shot - the difference between that and a .5 second cycle wouldn't be easy to tell I would guess. I have QS on my ranger, but I've never bothered running it under TF with QZ up to play with it, but 0.06 seconds difference would be pretty negligible - either way QS would look ready to go as soon as the shot cycled.

ElderAtronach · Aug 17, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Just FYI - your pet will attack anything you are attacking, though it is slow to target-switch. It takes a full attack cycle before your pet will acknowledge the target switch and run over to your new target to attack. I'm not saying disrupting lunge is a bad skill, but you have to ask yourself if it's worth it to you to bring along charm and the other pet skills needed to support your pet.

loc87 · Aug 17, 2005, 04:12 PM // 16:12

hmm .. what would a choking gas/practiced stance/tf build look like?

Choking Gas
Practiced Stance
Tiger's Fury
Distracting Shot?
Debilitating Shot
Pin Down
Whirling Defense
Bow Attack/Spirit?

ZD_kusanagi · Aug 17, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

That build just wouldn't work very well. Considering Choking Gas costs 15 energy each, Tiger's Fury costs 10 energy, and with practiced stance, you will be spamming it, if your lucky, you won't be able to use it over 2 times before you are reduced to just regular attacking and being a slight annoyance.

Epinephrine · Aug 17, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZD_kusanagi

That build just wouldn't work very well. Considering Choking Gas costs 15 energy each, Tiger's Fury costs 10 energy, and with practiced stance, you will be spamming it, if your lucky, you won't be able to use it over 2 times before you are reduced to just regular attacking and being a slight annoyance.

Have you ever played a Ranger? Expertise, man, no less than 12!! He'll be paying at most 5 for tiger's fury, and probably no more than 8 for the choking gas. I suspect he'd go with a 12 Expertise though 14 would be better, at least a 12 in the other two stats. 12/13/12 would be doable on a single superior rune, and 12/13/11/4 is also doable that way, giving reduced arrow damage but he's not going for damage, and it adds a 7 second TF to it. I'd personally look at dropping marksmanship to a 10 or even a 9 if you could hit the 14 expertise and boost your wilderness a bit - an 11/11/8/3 distribution could have 14/13/9/4 spending only 4 energy for the debilitating shots, 2 energy for the distracting shots and 7 energy for choking gas. Unsure about practised stance, but might be worth using. Might be better to simply use a second preparation in there, like Incendiary Arrows, which rather than speeding up your choking gas application to 1 second and giving you 15 seconds or so out of 25 seconds to use interrupting would give you 19 or so seconds of total interruptions - granted, you spend more time in preparations each cycle, but you also spend more time interrupting each cycle.

Neo-LD · Aug 17, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Practiced Stance and TF are both stances, you cant use them both.

ElderAtronach · Aug 17, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

IMO practiced stance is not worth the elite. You'd be much better off with either Punishing Shot or Incindiary Arrows.